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| Total Votes : 20 |
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Suzibabe
Vin Diesel
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 4178
Location: Wokingham
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 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm interesting. During a Project Management course we debated this. However, it was based on second offence for murderers and paedophiles. There was a lot of opposition to bring it back and everyone put their reasons forward both for and against.
However, at the end, the vote ended up as being 'For'.
I think the real problem is that the deterrent isn't there. Slightly off topic, but making a point, Malta is clamping down on drug trafficking. Here are three cases from the Times of Malta in the past 2 days.
"Djalo Sadumo, 42 of Guinea-Bassau was today jailed for 11 years and fined €30,000 after admitting to having imported heroin in 52 capsules in December 2007"
"In a similar case, Nigerian Victor Odaro Izevbigie, 36, admitted importing cocaine in 14 capsules in his stomach and was jailed for eight years. He was also fined €20,000. The Nigerian was arrested in October, 2008."
"A Nigerian man was yesterday jailed for 20 years and fined €70,000 for importing three kilograms of cocaine in what was described as one of the largest drug hauls ever."
Don't get that sort of "deterrent" in this country.
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Taz
MotoGP Racer
Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 3995
Location: As far away from reality as possible
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Cueball wrote: | | daily torture hey, Pinapple up the bum daily sounds about right! |
Not personal experience I hope!
And it's PINEAPPLE
Spelling Police won't be impressed.
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"Deja Moo" the feeling you have heard this Bullshit before |
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biggus
illitterātus
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 31748
Location: Hotel California
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Taz wrote: | | A man has committed murder, has stood trial, been convicted and sentenced to death. He is then executed by the "executioner." Is what the executioner has done not considered murder as well? |
Absolutely... Those who caught, and illegally (under the Geneva convention) executed the Great Escapeés were following orders from Hitler, yet they were tracked down, and ironically executed themselves. So.... where does it stop?
Again, I ask, if someone has a genetic pre-disposition to violent crime they could be considered to be mentally ill, just as an alcoholic or drug addict is mentally ill, or mentally pre-disposed to their particular behavior. Should pity not be what they are shown to a certain degree?
What made you ask the question? Was it on Jeremy Kyle this morning?
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www.bigguspicus.co.uk
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand Binary and those who don't
There are II types of people in the world: those who understand Roman numerals and those who don't.
98% of all Harleys ever sold are still on the road. The other 2% made it home |
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Taz
MotoGP Racer
Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 3995
Location: As far away from reality as possible
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| biggus wrote: | | Taz wrote: | | A man has committed murder, has stood trial, been convicted and sentenced to death. He is then executed by the "executioner." Is what the executioner has done not considered murder as well? |
Absolutely... Those who caught, and illegally (under the Geneva convention) executed the Great Escapeés were following orders from Hitler, yet they were tracked down, and ironically executed themselves. So.... where does it stop?
Again, I ask, if someone has a genetic pre-disposition to violent crime they could be considered to be mentally ill, just as an alcoholic or drug addict is mentally ill, or mentally pre-disposed to their particular behavior. Should pity not be what they are shown to a certain degree?
What made you ask the question? Was it on Jeremy Kyle this morning? |
OI! stop misquoting me!
Of course a judge would have to take everything into consideration, if a person is proved to be mentally ill then there would have to be consideration to this.
No it wasn't on Jeremy Kyle, a post on another forum brought this to mind but as there is a death of a Police officer involved, I am not going into detail.
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"Deja Moo" the feeling you have heard this Bullshit before |
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Biker-Spawn
"Magneto"
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2995
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Personal opinion: Yes, there should be a death penalty for some things. However, the death penalty should not be automatic.
If a person has committed murder, even if in cold blood, but is unlikely to do it again as it was for a unique reason or due to mental disability then I do not believe the death penalty should be applied.
If the person has committed murder out of a general disregard to society and there is a high likelihood of the person committing murder or crimes of a similar nature again (such as, say, permanently crippling someone by beating them round the head with a hammer), then yes the death penalty should be applied. In such an instance the death penalty is a preventative measure.
For example, big time drug dealers for whom offenses such as GBH are common should face the death penalty, as they have a high likelihood of reoffending due to their disregard for the affect of their actions upon society.
On the other hand, if a man kills another man because the man in question raped his wife, but otherwise has a clean criminal record, I say give him a slap on the wrist. A hefty fine and a short prison sentence, maybe just community service. He knows what he did is wrong, but it's not likely that he's going to kill anyone else because the chances of someone else giving such a reason are low...and if someone does give such a reason, I think the reaction of killing them is quite understandable.
Also, if there's a genetical thing in some people which causes them to commit murder, then surely executing the bastard removes their "genetic" from the gene pool? It'd be similar to natural selection...
Perhaps thinking like this makes me a bad person... 
_________________
You start the game of life with a full pot o' luck and an empty pot o' experience. The objective is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck.
If you can't get it going with bungee cords and gaffa tape, it's serious. |
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biggus
illitterātus
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 31748
Location: Hotel California
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Taz wrote: | | Of course a judge would have to take everything into consideration, if a person is proved to be mentally ill then there would have to be consideration to this. |
I was not saying about proving mental illness, I was just saying that those who in particular commit multiple crimes are highly likely to be genetically or otherwise predisposed to such behaviour - is that really their fault? Get orf your high horse and stop missing the point!  I am not saying they should be excused, BUT perhaps in someways we should have pity on them as their behaviour is not what we consider "normal" but to them it probably is.
We have to be clear, as from my untrained ordinary guy on the street perspective there are several different kinds of "murder"/killing
1. The act of killing another human being is a pleasurable experience for the killer i.e. "serial killers"
2. Crime of passion - someone catches their partner out and in a rage kills them or their lover/whatever, and probably immediately regrets it, and I would imagine that they turn themselves in.
3. someone who has been bullied, beaten or otherwise abused for years finally snaps and "wraps the frying pan round the old mans head". They probably feel relieved, call 999 and turn themselves in.
4. Out of hand arguement, the "victor" of the arguement panics, and does a runner.
There are probably other types, however, 2 & 3 I can understand, I am not saying I accept or condone. #1... that is where we call people "sick" etc... yes they are, mentally sick, I don't care what people say, I am sure that people who have those tendancies think them normal, albeit socially unacceptable.
| Taz wrote: | | No it wasn't on Jeremy Kyle, a post on another forum brought this to mind but as there is a death of a Police officer involved, I am not going into detail. |
Why not? Why stir up here and not actually say what it's really about, and why you are so clearly het up about it?
_________________
www.bigguspicus.co.uk
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand Binary and those who don't
There are II types of people in the world: those who understand Roman numerals and those who don't.
98% of all Harleys ever sold are still on the road. The other 2% made it home |
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The Mouse
Forum Ferry Spotter
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 4904
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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All this 'lefty liberal' talk of Mental illness and how it's wrong to have the death penalty really pisses me off.
Yes, OK, they may be mentally ill, which may be why they committed murder in the first place. But that doesn't alter the fact that they have taken someones life. And if they have taken someones life, on purpose, which is what murder is, then they should be removed from society forever. That's my view.
Suzibabe, with the discussion you had about only after the second offence, the thing is if it was done after the first offence then there would not have been a second offence, that is one life saved!!!!!!
Not just talking about the death penalty here, but it is the 'lefty liberals' and their view's that is why this country is so fcuked up and people don't feel safe leaving their homes for fear of getting robbed at knifepoint.
Ban the Human Rights Act
Ban re-habilitation
Get rid of all the pool tables, playstations, gyms, tv's, radios etc etc from prisons. Lock them up in a cell for 23 1/2 hours every day and let them have 1\2 hours walking around in a circle for exercise. Ban all visiting rights. Make them serve the full sentance that they are given. Ban time off for good behaviour, instead, extent their time for bad behaviour.
Make prison a bad place to be, and not the place the lefty liberals have made it now.
Sorry, went off on a tangent then  |
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Sharky
TT Racer
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1163
Location: At bloody work probably!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Biker-Spawn wrote: | Personal opinion: Yes, there should be a death penalty for some things. However, the death penalty should not be automatic.
If a person has committed murder, even if in cold blood, but is unlikely to do it again as it was for a unique reason or due to mental disability then I do not believe the death penalty should be applied.
If the person has committed murder out of a general disregard to society and there is a high likelihood of the person committing murder or crimes of a similar nature again (such as, say, permanently crippling someone by beating them round the head with a hammer), then yes the death penalty should be applied. In such an instance the death penalty is a preventative measure.
For example, big time drug dealers for whom offenses such as GBH are common should face the death penalty, as they have a high likelihood of reoffending due to their disregard for the affect of their actions upon society.
On the other hand, if a man kills another man because the man in question raped his wife, but otherwise has a clean criminal record, I say give him a slap on the wrist. A hefty fine and a short prison sentence, maybe just community service. He knows what he did is wrong, but it's not likely that he's going to kill anyone else because the chances of someone else giving such a reason are low...and if someone does give such a reason, I think the reaction of killing them is quite understandable.
Also, if there's a genetical thing in some people which causes them to commit murder, then surely executing the bastard removes their "genetic" from the gene pool? It'd be similar to natural selection...
Perhaps thinking like this makes me a bad person... |
Nah i think your spot on mate
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Taz
MotoGP Racer
Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 3995
Location: As far away from reality as possible
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| biggus wrote: | | Taz wrote: | | Of course a judge would have to take everything into consideration, if a person is proved to be mentally ill then there would have to be consideration to this. |
I was not saying about proving mental illness, I was just saying that those who in particular commit multiple crimes are highly likely to be genetically or otherwise predisposed to such behaviour - is that really their fault? Get orf your high horse and stop missing the point! I am not saying they should be excused, BUT perhaps in someways we should have pity on them as their behaviour is not what we consider "normal" but to them it probably is.
We have to be clear, as from my untrained ordinary guy on the street perspective there are several different kinds of "murder"/killing
1. The act of killing another human being is a pleasurable experience for the killer i.e. "serial killers"
2. Crime of passion - someone catches their partner out and in a rage kills them or their lover/whatever, and probably immediately regrets it, and I would imagine that they turn themselves in.
3. someone who has been bullied, beaten or otherwise abused for years finally snaps and "wraps the frying pan round the old mans head". They probably feel relieved, call 999 and turn themselves in.
4. Out of hand arguement, the "victor" of the arguement panics, and does a runner.
There are probably other types, however, 2 & 3 I can understand, I am not saying I accept or condone. #1... that is where we call people "sick" etc... yes they are, mentally sick, I don't care what people say, I am sure that people who have those tendancies think them normal, albeit socially unacceptable.
| Taz wrote: | | No it wasn't on Jeremy Kyle, a post on another forum brought this to mind but as there is a death of a Police officer involved, I am not going into detail. |
Why not? Why stir up here and not actually say what it's really about, and why you are so clearly het up about it? |
Of course a proportional viewpoint would have to be taken into consideration with regard to all of the above. If someone has killed before then yes they are likely to kill again. A jury would still have to hear the case once it has been proved 100 percent that the culprit is guilty. It would be the job of the psychologist(s) to present their report to the judge and jury for any issues regarding the accused mental stability
There will always be different scenarios as to why a murder took place, getting the balance between them hanging etc. for the offence or going to jail would be very difficult. As Mouse points out, there is absolutely no deterrent not to commit murder in this country anymore.
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"Deja Moo" the feeling you have heard this Bullshit before
Last edited by Taz on Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Biker-Spawn
"Magneto"
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2995
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Taz wrote: | | As Mouse points out, there is absoulutely no deterrent not to commit murder in this country anymore. |
Yeah there is, I don't fancy doing 18 months inside.
_________________
You start the game of life with a full pot o' luck and an empty pot o' experience. The objective is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck.
If you can't get it going with bungee cords and gaffa tape, it's serious. |
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Biker-Spawn
"Magneto"
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2995
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The Mouse wrote: |
Not just talking about the death penalty here, but it is the 'lefty liberals' and their view's that is why this country is so fcuked up and people don't feel safe leaving their homes for fear of getting robbed at knifepoint.
Ban the Human Rights Act
Ban re-habilitation
Get rid of all the pool tables, playstations, gyms, tv's, radios etc etc from prisons. Lock them up in a cell for 23 1/2 hours every day and let them have 1\2 hours walking around in a circle for exercise. Ban all visiting rights. Make them serve the full sentance that they are given. Ban time off for good behaviour, instead, extent their time for bad behaviour.
Make prison a bad place to be, and not the place the lefty liberals have made it now.
Sorry, went off on a tangent then |
+1 
_________________
You start the game of life with a full pot o' luck and an empty pot o' experience. The objective is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck.
If you can't get it going with bungee cords and gaffa tape, it's serious. |
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Taz
MotoGP Racer
Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 3995
Location: As far away from reality as possible
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Biker-Spawn wrote: | | Taz wrote: | | As Mouse points out, there is absoulutely no deterrent not to commit murder in this country anymore. |
Yeah there is, I don't fancy doing 18 months inside. |
You're not wrong which is why we are in this sad state.
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"Deja Moo" the feeling you have heard this Bullshit before |
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biggus
illitterātus
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 31748
Location: Hotel California
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The Mouse wrote: | | All this 'lefty liberal' talk of Mental illness and how it's wrong to have the death penalty really pisses me off. |
If that is aimed at me, I ask that you kindly read what I was actually saying, or trying to say 
| The Mouse wrote: | | Yes, OK, they may be mentally ill, which may be why they committed murder in the first place. |
My point was about a genetic predisposition for criminality/violence/deviant behaviour, I wasn't excusing their actions.
| The Mouse wrote: | | But that doesn't alter the fact that they have taken someones life. |
No, sadly not 
| The Mouse wrote: | | And if they have taken someones life, on purpose, |
My "lefty" point of view was just saying that the perpetraitors think that it's ok or normal, which is what I was referring to as mentally ill 
| The Mouse wrote: | | which is what murder is, then they should be removed from society forever. That's my view. |
And in part, I agree with you
| The Mouse wrote: | | Suzibabe, with the discussion you had about only after the second offence, the thing is if it was done after the first offence then there would not have been a second offence, that is one life saved!!!!!! |
And it probably all stems from not being allowed to give the kids the slipper/belt/cane... never did me any harm, and by god I lived in fear of those!
| The Mouse wrote: | | Not just talking about the death penalty here, but it is the 'lefty liberals' and their view's that is why this country is so fcuked up and people don't feel safe leaving their homes for fear of getting robbed at knifepoint. |
Perhaps if coppers did their jobs rather than trying to catch "innocent" speeding motorcyclists the world would be a better place
| The Mouse wrote: | | Ban the Human Rights Act |
I agree in parts that it like so many things is a complete farce
| The Mouse wrote: | | Ban re-habilitation |
Dependant on the crime and circumstance, but, cold blooded murder and other such crimes, yes I agree.
| The Mouse wrote: | | Get rid of all the pool tables, playstations, gyms, tv's, radios etc etc from prisons. Lock them up in a cell for 23 1/2 hours every day and let them have 1\2 hours walking around in a circle for exercise. Ban all visiting rights. Make them serve the full sentance that they are given. Ban time off for good behaviour, instead, extent their time for bad behaviour. |
Yup +1
| The Mouse wrote: | | Make prison a bad place to be, and not the place the lefty liberals have made it now. |
Absolutely!
| The Mouse wrote: | | Sorry, went off on a tangent then |
An unusual occurance for you
_________________
www.bigguspicus.co.uk
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand Binary and those who don't
There are II types of people in the world: those who understand Roman numerals and those who don't.
98% of all Harleys ever sold are still on the road. The other 2% made it home |
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The Mouse
Forum Ferry Spotter
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 4904
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| biggus wrote: | | The Mouse wrote: | | All this 'lefty liberal' talk of Mental illness and how it's wrong to have the death penalty really pisses me off. |
If that is aimed at me, I ask that you kindly read what I was actually saying, or trying to say |
Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, chill out dude |
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Flipper
MotoGP Racer
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 5419
Location: Desolation Boulevard
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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It's a yes for me - I would also include illegal entry into the country 
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If you judge people, you have no time to love them. |
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Biker-Spawn
"Magneto"
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2995
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Flipper wrote: | | I would also include illegal entry into the country |
+1 
_________________
You start the game of life with a full pot o' luck and an empty pot o' experience. The objective is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck.
If you can't get it going with bungee cords and gaffa tape, it's serious. |
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southernspeed
MotoGP Racer
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 4132
Location: Froststead.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Cueball wrote: | yes, the burning of the witches, the inquisition etc, etc were a dark patch in the Church's history (not that I am church historian). I'd not like to stuck into a discussion about the finer points about organised relegion. What it comes down to at the end of the day is each and everybody's personal point of view.
I would, however, like to pose this question!
A man has committed murder, has stood trial, been convicted and sentenced to death. He is then executed by the "executioner." Is what the executioner has done not considered murder as well?
Is his "life taking" deed less wrong than the murderer and if so, by who'se great authority is it ordained that this form of life taking is not murder? Is it then not expected that the executed's family has the right to have the executioner executed?
Just some food for thought! |
Where do you stand on our country having armed forces then?
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It's not the speed of life that bothers me, it's the sudden stop at the end!
www.carshaltonmcc.com
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The Mouse
Forum Ferry Spotter
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 4904
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| southernspeed wrote: | | Cueball wrote: | yes, the burning of the witches, the inquisition etc, etc were a dark patch in the Church's history (not that I am church historian). I'd not like to stuck into a discussion about the finer points about organised relegion. What it comes down to at the end of the day is each and everybody's personal point of view.
I would, however, like to pose this question!
A man has committed murder, has stood trial, been convicted and sentenced to death. He is then executed by the "executioner." Is what the executioner has done not considered murder as well?
Is his "life taking" deed less wrong than the murderer and if so, by who'se great authority is it ordained that this form of life taking is not murder? Is it then not expected that the executed's family has the right to have the executioner executed?
Just some food for thought! |
Where do you stand on our country having armed forces then? |
Very good point |
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Flintstone
Del Boy Deer Hunter
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 3988
Location: .........in another world !
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Of course we should bring it back. Why should the taxpayer pay to keep some of the worst scum in luxury for many years, or the rest of their life ? Prison seems too easy an option !
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andjel
TT Racer
Joined: 05 Apr 2009
Posts: 1070
Location: On my way
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Cueball wrote: | | daily torture hey, Pinapple up the bum daily sounds about right! |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZQw6KuNKqs
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Seguy il tuo corso el lashi di lagente
'mothman' - half man, half moth
Success is the result of good judgement. Good judgement is the result of experience. Experience is often the result of bad judgement.
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