BoxHill.co.uk

[lost again]

some of the worst riding ive seen iam group rides.
but thinking about rospa
agree with tinks riding with are boys in blue very educational

[Va Va Oops]

Don't think I can afford Rapid Training at the moment, having just bought a bike and a flat...

...had been considering IAM as the cost is spread (and someone I know did a slow riding course with a local group and said it was good)

...but now I guess I'll just carry on not bothering

[boudicas]

[boudicas]

[GSEX-SLAPPY]

[GT]

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Speed Limits are Minimums and remember Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one

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(='.'=)

[wildman]

Hold on a second.
I just read back through this thread and from what I have seen the insults and arguments all started with you sunshine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Those opinions, even when they conflict with yours, aren't personal. If you dont get that, then a forum of any kind is not really the place for you.

Oh and while I'm at it, I better just point out that some of us dont like to mince words as it were. So with that in mind, Why dont you put on ya hi-vis, fire up ya bloody scooter (Otherwise known as a POS) and bugger off into the distance.
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The lunatics have finally taken over the asylum

[lost again]

[AJB]

I did a Rapid day with Jon Taylor. He was the ex Police and ex Nurburgring instructor that I suspect was referred to above. The whole day was in the rain and I learnt a lot.

Jon suggested ROSPA for further training. The bloke I have mainly ridden with can be damn fast when he feels like it and has a good deal of off road bike experience too. It has been fun and useful and has made me quicker, smoother and safer.

I also did a Surrey Police bikesafe course. However, I booked it ages ago before starting the ROSPA thing, so by the time it came up (in October) there were few surprises there. However, I was allocated an instructor on a one to one basis and we had a good day out. I would recommend bikesafe especially if you have not done any other advanced training. Very cheap.

Hard to beat track based training for fast bike control skills.

It is very easy to make critical remarks about IAM or whatever. Generally these seem to be based on hearsay rather than direct experience of the training. Personally I think that any training that sets out to reduce your risk of being killed or hurt on a bike is a good thing. if you are open minded about it you will get something good out of the training. The training is far more important than the test (unless you are a badge collector) and you can decide for yourself what you will incorporate into your riding or ignore.

IAM and ROSPA are very cheap for what you get. Some of the observers and examiners are very skilled riders. Jon Taylor for example is a ROSPA senior examiner and he has years of Nurburgring experience. You wont get away from that guy. At least these guys will give you an honest and constructive appraisal of your skills - or lack of them and you can take it from there if you want. Your mates on the other hand might pull punches - or god forbid might not be as good as they think / say they are
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Ducati 1098 and BMW R1100S

[GT]

Nicely put AJB
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Speed Limits are Minimums and remember Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one

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(='.'=)

[Incubus]

[biggus]

[wivvy's dad]

deleted

[AJB]

Well, it's nonsense really isn't it.

The purpose is acquiring skills. You do not have to join the IAM and you do not have to be a member of any group to take the test (you can apply directly if you want the insurance benefits). You don't have to become an observer. You don't have to go out on group rides. You don't have to buy any books. You don't have to see any IAM, Rospa, Bike safe etc people ever again, let alone ride with them if you don't want to after you have picked up whatever skills you seek!

It is surely unarguable that acquiring skills that help you to ride better, safer, even quicker if you want ...is a good thing. If You don't fancy IAM or ROSPA - don't do it.

There may well be better ways of acquiring good road skills (e.g. Rapid) but there are few if any cheaper ways that ROSPA and IAM.

But I think that people who continually argue that these things are worthless, are generally doing so from a position of relatively little knowledge or some unexplained and somewhat irrational prejudice. I prefer to make my judgements based on my own experience, rather than ill informed prejudices on forums.

Both IAM and ROSPA groups locally will do an assessment ride for free - you pay nothing. If you think the person who rides out with you is a twerp and can teach you nothing - don't go again and don't join. All you have lost is an hour or two and half a tank of go-go juice.

On the other hand - if you learn something that might one day save your life, then maybe the investment of a few hours and a small outlay in some training will be worth it. Can't see that there is much to lose from giving it a try myself.

Each to his own though. There will always be those who think they know enough and so cut off the avenues for learning. It is perhaps just a shame when they put other people off from at least trying out the benefits of cheap training for themselves.

So I would encourage people to think for themselves rather than just follow the nay sayers.
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Ducati 1098 and BMW R1100S

[Lil Mush]

AJB, I totally agree with you there. Are you married?! I think I'm falling in love...
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[wivvy's dad]

These may well be my final words on this subject.

I have held a motorcycle licence for over 40 years of almost continual riding.

It took me a total of 8 weeks (split into a 6 week course, and a 2 week course) professional classroom and practical tuition from a certain employer to gain my various qualifications, and I have subsequently put that training to good use in trying to help others, whether paid or unpaid.

I have in the past taken a passing interest in IAM and ROSPA groups, and know people in both groups, and the standards they hold and maintain.

I also know that some people like to "collect" qualifications, and to tell people about their collection.

I have also followed many people from this place on the road, and there are very, very few who could not benefit from further instruction of one sort or another.

However, I will not offer help or advice, preferring to point riders in the direction of suitably equipped and knowledgeable professionals. This would not necessarily include either IAM or ROSPA.

What I cannot tolerate is someone fresh from a couple of either IAM or ROSPA rides, maintaining that those institutions are THE repository of advanced riding excellence. Yes, they will give you a badge and a piece of paper that tells you that you are an advanced rider.

But you are not.

It takes more than a few observed rides, and a badge/piece of paper to truly be a rider of advanced capabilities.

[Matty]

I am always willing to improve my riding skills so next year, so I may well do one of the advanced courses.

Biking on our roads is constantly changing, and even with my 10 or so years of riding the traffic has changed dramitically!

[Tiny]

Hmmmmmm....

I'm saying nowt! I agree with some comments....
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I'd rather have a full bottle infront of me, than a full frontal Lobotomy

[AJB]

Wivvy's Dad - whilst you may well be an excellent rider whom many admire, you are being illogical in this thread. Any training is only as good as the particular trainer you happen to get: hence it is a wild and unsupportable generalization to condemn ROSPA or IAM as a whole, as there are bound to be some brilliant trainers and some rather average ones.

Many motorcyclists recount their decades of experience as if it is something special. But if such a motorcyclist (not pointing the finger at anyone here - just generalizing) is largely negative about training organizations, one has to wonder if that person simply has a negative attitude to learning generally and may in fact have stopped acquiring skills very early on in their decades of riding. They now have blinkers on and with a closed mind they cannot see the rut they are in.

But more importantly, take the inexperienced rider. It is no good saying "What you need is four decades of experience, luv". They can spend ages acquiring skills gradually - or more likely reinforcing bad habits. Or, more constructively, they can get some training and use the skills acquired to get them up the learning curve a lot more quickly. Then they can get the most from experience as they acquire it.

I think riders should be encouraged to evaluate their skills from time to time. We get older and we see less well and in some cases lose a few brain cells. We ride different, perhaps more powerful bikes. We ride on ever busier roads, that test our observational skills more and more. We get a bit set in our ways and overlook our bad or dangerous habits.

It is all very well for someone to say (paraphrasing) "I am an expert and maybe I could recommend some trainers but not IAM or ROSPA" . This is both vague and unconstructive. Who is to say you are a good judge? Who is to say that people who need training can afford private tuition? This is not a perfect world.

Yes - no doubt ROSPA and IAM could be improved. Maybe the training could be better. But ...these organizations are charities and the trainers / observers give their time for free to help fellow motorcyclists. Their expenses are barely covered. This is why the courses are so cheap. So - not perfect perhaps but a great deal better than no training at all.

I think an open mind helps here.
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Ducati 1098 and BMW R1100S

[wivvy's dad]

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whatever


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[GT]

[GSEX-SLAPPY]

franly i prefer the MTRMTM course.....no badge no certificate but bloody sound advice and tuition that leaves it to the individual to digest and excersise.

[boudicas]

[biggus]

Clearly an emotive subject for some any good training is a good thing, unfortunately there seems to be a divide over who delivers such training to a good standard. Any training is only as good as those delivering it, and therein lies the problem... How does a new rider know where they are going to get good quality, sound, correct, safe, valuable training from?

I have done Surrey bikesafe, which was good, I enjoyed that, and learned a great deal from it, but from talking to others on the same say as me there was some difference of standards there... I have done California Superbike School levels 1 and 2 and I can now put my knee down on the Aldwich hair pin at 1030 am on a Friday morning & I have also done the "boys day" that matt the rat & the mouse organised - that was excellent too. But to be honest the best training I have had is "experience", the more you can get the better, there is no short-cut to gaining it either, that said, appropriate traning can help, but it's not the total answer.

I am no expert nor is my riding "advanced", but I do think that most riders can take something of use from most experienced trainers, if you pick up one thing that save's your skin it's got be worth it. Obviously the reverse is true if you are taught something stupid and wipe yourself out then who is responsible? End of the day we are each responsible for our own ride & our own safety ulitmately.
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www.bigguspicus.co.uk

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[wivvy's dad]

I'm still learning..............